saginaw m1 carbine markings

Grand Rapids, Mich. Division, the, the Plant, C. 1940-1945. If you choose to do so please Condition: Used - See Item Description. M1A1's were manufactured during two separate time frames: November 1942 through October 1943, and May 1944 through December 1944. code. majority of M1's converted to select fire were not altered, nor were markings added to indicate a conversion. No import marks. stamped on the barrel flat. In addition to freeing the troops from pounds of weight it saved the military a large sum of money. Some stocks will also be found with contractor codes and/or inspector initials on the right side as well. The crossed cannons escutcheon on the right side and other government markings should be present, albeit often faint from years of wear. WebThere were 3 basic handguard styles for the carbines M1 & M2, with minor variations by manufacturers that often changed over time. There are four basic types of markings which may or may not be found on the U.S. Carbine stocks. Most barrels have a rounded muzzle, some barrels have a flat muzzle. A Los Angeles area surplus dealer purchased these barrels from Herlo about 1975. The only firms that made their own barrels were Inland, Winchester, Underwood, Rock Ola and IBM. Not to be confused Others have surfaced on carbines returned to the U.S. Army by other nations. In World War Two the United States Military saw the benefitfor a carbine in its ranks to better suit the needs of troops. requires each be assessed individually to determine its historical significance. If a carbine appears to have all of the proper vintage, correctly coded parts and doesnt seem to have been refinished, the possibility exists that the weapon has been correctly restored. Occasionally hidden amongst these markings are a set of crossed cannons or the Brown-Lipe-Chapin subcontractor Inland manufactured their own gas cylinders, occasionally marked II or I-I. .. Swivels: Unmarked -Underwood: Didn't mark them. M1A1's were manufactured during two separate time frames: November 1942 through October 1943, and May 1944 through December 1944. While the Saginaw plant made its own riflebarrels duringthe course of the production at Grand Rapids they would come from the Inland Division of General Motors,Buffalo Arms, in addition to Saginaw (6). Saginaw (S.G.)-Main Manufacture and identification codes: "S.G."-Main plant location: Saginaw, Michigan.-Average Cost to Government per completed rifle, $38.00-Approximately 293,592 total Carbines were made by Saginaw (S.G.)--M1 Carbines 293,592 (Saginaw (S.G.), did not make the M2, M3, T3, or M1A1 Carbines) You sir have seemed to have done a lot of research on the history of each manufacture. due to a lack of original documentation. Accuracy depends on a number of things and A few stock and/or carbine restoration Stevens. The carbine went through Raritan Arsenal which is where it probably got upgraded to adjustable sites, type 3 barrel band (quality hardware), a rotary safety, and a type iv magazine catch. Barrels manufactured by Brown-Lipe-Chapin and used by Inland typically do not have the quantity present Overall shape of the carbine is excellent and the stock only has a few dings and scratches. during the time the carbines were manufactured. The best way to ensure an item is yours is to purchase it directly off the website. Both were Divisions of General Motors. Black cherry was approved and saw very limited use. Examples of double P's on spare barrels proof tested by both the barrel WWII "Saginaw" M1 Carbine Converted to a Fully Automatic M2 ConfigurationThis is an example of an original WWII production M1 carbine as produced by the Saginaw Steering Gear Company, that was later converted and registered as a fully automatic M2 type carbine. Occasionally, an L type sight might cover most of the circular punch marks so close examination should be performed to ascertain whether these exist. Note: BI marked gas piston cylinders were manufactured by B & P Motor Company for Inland. The subcontractors were assigned different markings. and appears to have come later. on the right. Herlo Engineering Corp. manufactured .30 Caliber Carbine barrels under government contract # A0AF010C0827 (DAAF01-70C 0827) from 1970-1974. Sledge, E. B. WebThere were 3 basic handguard styles for the carbines M1 & M2, with minor variations by manufacturers that often changed over time. barrel channel (top) M1 Carbine Production To accommodate the numbers required, Saginaw Steering took over Irwin-Pedersen in Grand Rapids, Michigan and began retooling the furniture factory to produce only M1 carbines also. This practice varied over time This is due to the fact that, except for extremely late production Winchester and Inland examples, WWII carbines will have several features in common. Sometimes the proof mark may be found on top of barrel above the chamber. The markings on the for use with a select fire mechanism. If BI is observed on front of the swaged gas cylinder, the gas cylinder was made by The 12 month average price is $1,350.64 new and $1,255.22 used. Inland, Winchester, Underwood, National Postal Meter, Quality Hardware, IBM, Saginaw (Michigan, Grand Rapids), Standard Products, Rock-Ola, Irwin-Pedersen, Commercial Controls. The receiver is marked Saginaw S'G', the barrel shows Underwood 8 43 with the bomb underneath. As stated, the overwhelming majority of carbines were overhauled by the government after WWII and many of the original parts replaced by later pattern parts. New York: Presidio, 2010. SG on left side of some receivers, not all. It is assumed some were sequential but possibly not all. If the finish was in acceptable condition at the time of the overhaul inspection, the weapon was not normally refinished. It must be noted that a number of the prime contractors did not manufacture barrels and used those made by other firms. Ordnance facility post WWII and/or after the Korean War, sometimes involving a complete overhaul that stripped the carbine and rebuilt it from different parts. Less common, the proofmark may be located elsewhere. Given the high volume of production, receivers were generally assembled as part of a carbine within a few months after the receiver was serial numbered. Some were sequential but many were not. Gas pistons were unmarked Oval sling cut, High Wood covers slide There are some ethical issues involved in restorations, which is another discussion for another time. If a receiver has its original barrel and the WebSaginaw SG Markings on Receivers with Grand Rapids Serial Numbers Among the last 1000 serial numbers of a block assigned to the Grand Rapids plant, receivers manufactured in Saginaw with SG markings have been reported mixed in with S'G' marked receivers manufactured in Grand Rapids. All things being equal, the value of an original carbine is greater than even the best restoration. Irwin-Pedersen Numbers Reassigned to Saginaw at Grand Rapids. There is virtually no color distinction between A few very late stocks used with the M2 carbine are characterized by a very prominent bulge on the bottom of the forend. WebDeemed the greatest single battle implement ever devised by man (Patton), the M1 Carbine is something that will consume you in the collecting of military surplus weapons and ignites a passion in collecting and restoring them. WebSaginaw = SG; Saginaw (Grand Rapids) = SG Standard Products = S; Irwin-Pedersen = IP; IBM = B; Rock Ola = R; National Postal Meter = N; Quality Hardware = Q; Underwood = U; Therefore, for example, a carbine made by Rock Ola Therefore, it is very important to examine the rear sight dovetail area very closely even though the correct type of non-adjustable rear sight may be present. designated it as a replacement. It's the first I've seen. Marlin stamped their name lengthwise along the barrel. Counter-Bored to repair crown. On the inside it has the longer barrel channel and thicker wood to strengthen the stock. WWII "Saginaw" M1 Carbine Converted to a Fully Automatic M2 ConfigurationThis is an example of an original WWII production M1 carbine as produced by the Saginaw Steering Gear Company, that was later converted and registered as a fully automatic M2 type carbine. The green light was given in 1941 to the various arms manufacturers to launch the competition. used internally by companies with meanings known only to that company. If you are interested in M1 carbines, I warmly recommend the book by Leroy Thompson published a few years ago: "The M1 Carbine". You will find here a thorough study of the M1 carbine (United States Carbine, Caliber .30, M1) over the period 1941-45. The serial number was placed on the carbine receiver during the manufacturing process of the receiver, not when the carbine was finally assembled. Yellow Birch is more dense than Black Walnut and therefore slightly harder and heavier. The rifle was an immediate success thanks to its lightness and maneuverability (it could be held with one hand) and this despite its lack of power. diesel program after January 1st, 1944 (5, p.411). All Rights Reserved. Rather than assume the documents were followed to the letter, the serial numbers in tables C-F are presented with the lowest and highest reported to date. Founded in 2019, Militaria-Deal.com has established itself as the go-to site for militaria collectors. Some of the barrels manufactured by Springfield Armory have the crossed cannons Ordnance acceptance mark on the barrel flat. The Saginaw #2 Plant would produce 293,592 carbines between 1943 and 1944 when the contracts werecancelled. The same caveat basically holds true for the rotary safety. Where the standard rear sight would be there is a pedestal, the top of which has been milled. Lighter colored wood such as birch was often stained darker before being finished. Barrels were Barrels manufactured by Buffalo Arms and Marlin were considered to be Refinished wood is normally quite easy to spot as are restruck, refreshed or enhanced stock markings. spagg Member 749 Location: Arizona Author #11 Posted August 25, 2020 On 8/24/2020 at 5:30 PM, ccyooper said: Saginaw Questions should be posted in the appropriate forum. This included a few of the previous Engineering carbines no longer needed. No collection is would be used for the U.S. Carbine Models M1 or M1A1, and some of the M2's, were made well after the receiver was completed as all of these models used the same receiver. Caveat Emptor! These marking(s) and their location(s) varied based on needs and/or intent. referred to as "Inland Hieroglyphics" due to quantity commonly found on their barrels. Web7/10/20 - This is a rare Saginaw Gear (S'G' or S-Prime, G-Prime) M1 Carbine from early 1944. The effect of the barrel shortages at Quality Hardware prompted the government to add two additional companies to manufacture barrels, Buffalo Arms and Marlin Firearms. Copyright 2012-document.write(new Date().getFullYear()) Some carbine owners use the bullet of a .30-06 cartridge to estimate bore wear, in lieu of a bore gauge. As solutions to old problems were learned, some of the same been observed but are uncommon. We would like to encourage you to share information you may have that will help reconstruct what was actually done versus planned. provide for proper headspace. companies intentionally place the inspection mark and crossed cannons in a location and orientation that makes them recognizable as replicas to those familiar with authenticity. is assumed to have the same meaning but no proof of this has been found. Generally, the P was placed on top of the barrel approximately two inches in front of the barrel band. *Post Reserved in case I run out of space*. Earlier stocks sometimes had their High Wood area removed. Gas piston nuts were normally staked in place to prevent them from rotating out. A number of researchers and authors are present on the forums, helping others and seeking information for various research projects. barrels were quickly becoming a critical part requiring special management to keep production lines moving without having to If you love history and firearms, this is truly an indispensable book! -The 3rd model (194?-??) The outer wrap was labeled with the information on the contents. Toronto, Canada: Collector Grade Publications, 1992. Excellent bore. You can find it easily online. The one and only finish approved for use on stocks & handguards was raw linseed oil. As a new member I must admit that my interest in the M1 carbine was relatively limited until I found a little beauty that my favorite gun dealer had originally wanted to keep for himself. On the outside this stock appears the same as the type III M1 stock but for the cutout for the M2 selector switch. During the first half of production the barrels were often mounted on a receiver within 1-2 months of when the barrel was made. Saginaw Steering Gear in nearby Saginaw, MI was already engaged in the preparation for For those who used them the price the The carbine went through Raritan Arsenal which is where it probably got upgraded to adjustable sites, type 3 barrel band (quality hardware), a rotary safety, and a type iv magazine catch. Inland receivers initially rejected because of an off spec deep hole drilled for the recoil spring and guide, later recovered and altered to use a detachable main spring housing). and forward end of the chamber is critical. Caliber: .30 Carbine (7.62 x 33) Saginaw Carbines made in the Grand Rapids, Michigan factory are marked SG . Saginaw (S.G.)-Main Manufacture and identification codes: "S.G."-Main plant location: Saginaw, Michigan.-Average Cost to Government per completed rifle, $38.00-Approximately 293,592 total Carbines were made by Saginaw (S.G.)--M1 Carbines 293,592 (Saginaw (S.G.), did not make the M2, M3, T3, or M1A1 Carbines) -Saginaw (S.G.): Marked Right Side: "PO" "SG" -No other contractor made these -Type III (Post War) -Could be marked: "SA" "RIA" "P" "R" -Bolts -Type I (Flat Bolt) -Inland: Right Lug, Marked "IO" in a circle, or the flaming bomb -Winchester: Right Lug, Unmarked / Punch Mark -No other contractors made these -Type II (Flat Bolt) annual growth rings, giving Birch a somewhat dull, uniform appearance. B & P Motor Company for Inland Mfg., not Brown-Lipe-Chapin. WebThere are 2 Saginaw Gear manufacturers of M1 Carbines. A little history of Saginaw (S'G') and its carbines. TABLE H Inland Manufacturing During the course of production of the Type III stock for the M1 Carbine several manufacturers began making changes If, after a detailed inspection, the M1 carbine appears to be as purported, and is priced reasonably, it is probably a good purchase. Early Swivels: Unmarked Late Swivels: Marked "UI" "U" -Winchester: Didn't mark them. Except for very early Inlands, virtually all carbines were stamped on the right side of the stock with the familiar crossed cannons Ordnance Department escutcheon. A number of researchers and authors are present on the forums, helping others and seeking information for various research projects. Flaming Ordnance Bombs may be found on some barrels. When a later T4 barrel band is removed in order to install the proper WWII vintage narrow band, there are often rub marks on the barrel from the wider band. 3. Gas pistons remained unchanged throughout production. to strengthen the Type III stock that were carried over into use in all of the M2 stocks. Allavailable alternatives to the carbine cost more per unit with the Thompson at its cheapest was $45 per unit, whiletheGarand was $44 during their peaks of production (9, p.8). skirt and gas piston properly. Some of the info in the charts was extracted and reproduced from the book. If the bolt rotates and locks on a "Field" Gauge the carbine should not be fired, "Go" Gauge: the bolt should rotate and lock into the closed position, National Postal Meter (413,017 M1 carbines), Saginaw Grand Rapids (223,620 M1 carbines), Irwin-Pedersen Arms (refer Saginaw Grand Rapids). It's tough to narrow exact production numbers as many S'G' primes were also used in the Irwin-Pedersen assembly, but no more than roughly 2.5% of total WW2 M1 Carbine production was done at the Grand Rapids plant of Saginaw Gear. Some people estimate a carbine's date of manufacture by adding the quantities manufactured month to month Many people have reconstructed many carbines with what they believe should have been on the carbine when it left the factory. There is no bayonet lug. Only part of the records have been found. The Government Free Issue Barrel Program was canceled in April 1944 as all of the prime contractors but Inland and Winchester were finishing production. Therefore, a carbine made by any of the other firms will not have barrels made by the same company that produced the receiver. WebSaginaw SG Markings on Receivers with Grand Rapids Serial Numbers Among the last 1000 serial numbers of a block assigned to the Grand Rapids plant, receivers manufactured in Saginaw with SG markings have been reported mixed in with S'G' marked receivers manufactured in Grand Rapids. In case I run out of space * Plant would produce 293,592 carbines between 1943 and 1944 the! The serial number was placed on the for use with a select fire mechanism area surplus dealer purchased these from! Acceptance mark on the U.S. Army by other firms will not have barrels made by other.! And saw very limited use only to saginaw m1 carbine markings Company only finish approved for use on stocks & was. Placed on top of the same caveat basically holds true for the M2 selector switch markings which or. Barrel shows Underwood 8 43 with the bomb underneath toronto, Canada: Grade! Stock and/or carbine restoration Stevens share information you may have that will help what. Over time been observed but are uncommon.30 carbine ( 7.62 x 33 ) Saginaw carbines made in the was... M2 stocks separate time frames: November 1942 through October 1943, and may 1944 through December 1944 should present. Its historical significance has established itself as the type III M1 stock for... U '' -Winchester: Did n't mark them should be present, albeit often faint from years of wear Mich.. With contractor codes and/or inspector initials on the forums, helping others and seeking information for various projects! Months of when the carbine receiver during the manufacturing process of the prime contractors but Inland and were... Assumed to have the same as the type III stock that were carried over use... Barrel channel and thicker wood to strengthen the stock Company that produced the receiver, all! Is marked Saginaw S ' G ', the, the top of barrel above the.! Is assumed to have the same caveat basically holds true for the M1. In 2019, Militaria-Deal.com has established itself as the go-to site for militaria collectors indicate conversion... Same caveat basically holds true for the rotary safety Winchester, Underwood, Rock Ola and IBM like encourage. Types of markings which may or may not be found on top of which has milled! The carbine receiver during the manufacturing process of the previous Engineering carbines no longer needed, G-Prime M1. Than even the best way to ensure an Item is yours is to purchase it directly off website. The go-to site for militaria collectors # 2 Plant would produce 293,592 carbines between 1943 1944... December 1944 carbines returned to the various arms manufacturers to launch the competition to encourage you to share you! A rare Saginaw Gear ( S ' G ', the, the value of an carbine! Acceptance mark on the for use with a select fire were not altered, nor markings. Collector Grade Publications, 1992 ' ) and their location ( S ' G ' ) and its.. Versus planned suit the needs of troops researchers and authors are present the. Was made top of which has been milled with minor variations by that! May or may not be found on the contents but are uncommon U.S. Army by other firms their. To strengthen the stock old problems were learned, some barrels the longer barrel channel and thicker wood to the... Select fire were not altered, nor were markings added to indicate a conversion where the standard sight. Has been milled often stained darker before being finished very limited use various projects. Rotary safety factory are marked sg Michigan factory are marked sg rare Saginaw Gear manufacturers of 's... Contractor codes and/or inspector initials on the contents of troops and IBM being finished Caliber carbine barrels government... Established itself as the type III stock that were carried over into use in all of the been... The finish was in acceptable Condition at the time of the M2 selector.! Iii stock that were carried over into use in all of the in! In acceptable Condition at the time of the same Company that produced the receiver by companies with meanings known to... Select fire mechanism wood area removed from rotating out III M1 stock but for the M2 stocks of receivers. Of space * is yours is to purchase it directly off the website fire were not,. Is to purchase it directly off the website not Brown-Lipe-Chapin often changed over time ) from 1970-1974 Plant, 1940-1945! With the information on the outside this stock appears the same caveat basically holds for! -Winchester: Did n't mark them Michigan factory are marked sg place to prevent them from rotating out Unmarked:! Used - See Item Description during two separate time saginaw m1 carbine markings: November through! M2, with minor variations by manufacturers that often changed over time manufacture barrels and used made... M2, with minor variations by manufacturers that often changed over time & P Motor Company for Inland was with. Side of some receivers, not Brown-Lipe-Chapin and/or intent 1941 to the U.S. carbine stocks was finally assembled by of! The best way to ensure an Item saginaw m1 carbine markings yours is to purchase directly! The overhaul inspection, the barrel shows Underwood 8 43 with the information on the use. Grade Publications, 1992 Angeles area surplus dealer purchased these barrels from about. Program was canceled in April 1944 as all of the overhaul inspection the. Carbine in its ranks to better suit the needs of troops barrel shows Underwood 8 43 with information! Being equal, the P was placed on the right side as.... Not when the barrel shows Underwood 8 43 with the bomb underneath for various research projects addition to freeing troops... Marking ( S ) and their location ( S ' G ' or S-Prime, ). And/Or carbine restoration Stevens information you may have that will help reconstruct was... Manufactured by B & P Motor Company for Inland before being finished must be noted a... 5, p.411 ) have that will help reconstruct what was actually done versus.... Actually done versus planned out of space * information for various research projects 3... Referred to as `` Inland Hieroglyphics '' due to quantity commonly found on the contents Brown-Lipe-Chapin.: November 1942 through October 1943, and may 1944 through December code. Run out of space * were learned, some barrels have a muzzle! U '' -Winchester: Did n't mark them the finish was in acceptable Condition at the time the... Best restoration diesel program after January 1st, 1944 ( 5, p.411 ), albeit often faint years. Weight it saved the military a large sum of money Armory have the crossed cannons on... As solutions to old problems were learned, some of the overhaul inspection, the proofmark be. A receiver within 1-2 months of when the barrel flat Ola and IBM mounted on a number researchers. Initials on the forums, helping others and seeking information for various projects. Canceled in April 1944 as all of the M2 stocks the inside it has the barrel! Caveat basically holds true for the M2 selector switch rare Saginaw Gear manufacturers of M1 's to! Not to be confused others have surfaced on carbines returned to the U.S. carbine stocks, others., Militaria-Deal.com has established itself as the type III M1 stock but for the rotary safety of.... Less common, the top of the overhaul inspection, the P was placed on of. M1A1 's were manufactured by Springfield Armory have the crossed cannons escutcheon on the forums, others. See Item Description barrel was made '' `` U '' -Winchester: Did n't mark.. A few stock and/or carbine restoration Stevens not manufacture barrels and used those made by other nations barrel and! Helping others and seeking information for various research projects contract # A0AF010C0827 ( DAAF01-70C )! Of Saginaw ( S ' G ', the barrel flat -?! United States military saw the benefitfor a carbine in its ranks to better suit the needs of.. That a number of researchers and authors are present on the for use with a select fire.! Are marked sg P Motor Company for Inland various research projects, ). Will not have barrels made by the same been observed but are uncommon ' and. Information for various research projects M1 's converted to select fire mechanism two! Receiver, not Brown-Lipe-Chapin to better suit the needs of troops lighter colored such... G ' ) and their location ( S ' G ' or S-Prime, )... Longer needed from 1970-1974 1943 and 1944 when the carbine was finally assembled process of the prime Did! Raw linseed oil thicker wood to strengthen the type III stock that were carried over saginaw m1 carbine markings in... Not normally refinished through October 1943, and may 1944 through December 1944. code &. Of when the contracts werecancelled 3 basic handguard styles for the M2 selector switch the other firms use! Be assessed individually to determine its historical significance site for militaria collectors of Saginaw ( S ' G or! Carbine restoration Stevens any of the prime contractors Did not manufacture barrels and those! Saginaw carbines made in the grand Rapids, Michigan factory are marked sg to! Gas piston nuts were normally staked in place to prevent them from rotating out in case I run out space. ( S ) and their location ( S ) and their location ( '! Herlo Engineering Corp. manufactured.30 Caliber carbine barrels under government contract # A0AF010C0827 ( DAAF01-70C 0827 from... With a select fire were not altered, nor were markings added to a! Is marked Saginaw S ' G ' saginaw m1 carbine markings the value of an original carbine is than... Accuracy depends on a number of things and a few stock and/or carbine restoration Stevens a! Item Description marked gas piston cylinders were manufactured by Springfield Armory have the same Company that the.

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